TOP TIER FUELS

Automobile engines have been getting more sophisticated every year. The Fuel Standards have been set by the government and are a MINIMUM standard. But, automobile manufacturers have found that minimums standards are not enough to help keep engines running at their maximum efficiency and performance standards.

Top Tier® fuels is a standard that exceeds minimum EPA standards. So what does that mean for the consumer?

Fuel grades; Regular, Premium or midgrade are NOT about quality.
Fuel Grades have to do with Octane.
Manufactures do recommend octane requirements and to use the wrong octane can result in SERIOUS engine damage to some vehicles. Be sure to follow your manufactures recommendations.

Top Tier® fuels are designed to clean your engine while you drive from deposits that would cause loss of performance. Clean injectors atomize fuel better. Detergents that clean deposits that accumulate in the intake air streams, like carbon from EGR systems will ensure your engine has maximum air flow for power, and prevent valves from sticking. Also additives that minimize carbon buildup in the combustion chambers with help minimize spark knock due to increased combustion pressures which can result in lower performance and in some cases, engine damage.

Store bought additive can help too. Many are available readily in retail outlets and fuel station convenience centers. Some even allow you to choose your 'ad pac' at the pump! But if you know that Top Tier® is readily available, and you don't have add it on your own, then you simply have to identify who sells it.

Nearly all name brand fuels can be considered Top Tier®. Top Tier® also has a website, http://www.toptiergas.com that has a list of stations that offer Top Tier®.

So now you might wonder, "What does this cost?"
Many consumers by from the lowest price, thinking I will get the lowest grade at the lowest price because all gasoline is the same. This type of thinking will help keep me busier, and in the long term, cost the consumer more for repairs.

Top Tier® fuel prices may be much less than you think! Often the differences is penny's per gallon and little more than a $1 more per tankful. Of course there is quite a variety of additives available, and the cost will vary. You may want the absolute best add pac, and you may find you pay more.
Just as if you may prefer non GMO Organic foods to the lowest cost, so you may prefer premium fuel additives. Each fuel supplier has their special additives. If you are concerned, I recommend you check each candidate to see which you like best!

For me, Top Tier® meets the need of keeping your engines performance and economy at its best!

Preparing for Inspection

Lately I keep hearing from folks who have CELs [Check Engine Light] recently cleared that all they have to do is, "Drive 100 miles and then it should be good!" I am sorry, but that is just not right. How far you drive is not the test of if it will pass, but how are the 'Monitors' responding.

Monitors are tests that the computer performs while you drive. Their purpose is to 'test' the engine controls and emissions systems to be sure they are not polluting. The Feds don't care how you car runs, only that it is not producing excessive emissions. And of course this is only applicable if you are in an Emissions Compliant County. The Car manufacturers must meet Federal and/or California emission standards in order to build the cars. The current system in use since 1996 is known as OBD2 which stands for On Board Diagnostics 2 which is the second system instituted to monitor emissions to ensure compliance to the standards.

OBD1 would only show you a failure. Sometimes the light would go off and often leave no trace of a problem. OBD2 solves that and more by recording multiple failures and if the minimum threshold is reached, then the light will set. OBD monitors all systems, not only ones that make your vehicle run badly. So things like Alcohol Sensors or Catalytic Converters that do not affect drivability, but are required to ensure low emissions can cause you light to come on. Some Chryslers would set the light if the Lock Up Converter failed in the transmission! Even though it did not affect emissions at all! Only your gas mileage!

Monitors must run [little programs that test your vehicle] and have the required number of passes to be considered compliant. There is no simple way to do this for the DIYr. The tests are performed when you drive, and it requires certain requirements to be met. Catalysts are tested at about 50mph, some O2 heaters are tested after the car is turned off! Evaporative systems are tested only when you start for some cars, and others require driving at speed also! Every car is different. The driving that is required to complete monitors can be complex. The name for that driving is Drive Cycles.

So, now you are wondering, "How can I know when it is ready for inspection?"
Usually I tell folks to drive for a day, come by the shop or an inspections station and have them check the monitors to see if it is ready to pass. Many shops will do this as a courtesy, some parts stores and some inspection stations will also. Most OBD2 vehicles will pass with 1 monitor incomplete, but this depends on your State and your area where you drive.

It might be good to note now that if you have a fault, and do not fix it, the chance is the CEL will re-illuminate after driving. Just turning the light off will not make it inspect. You have to FIX the problem that causes the CEL to come on. Depending on the failed part, this could be quite costly! Catalytic Converters are very expensive and can cost of $2000! A alcohol sensor can cost $1000.

If you want your car to run clean, and the systems designed to monitor it to function properly, then you must fix the car. It is true that emissions may not be affected by the failure, but the LAW says if it could LEAD to increased emissions you must fix it. Otherwise you can write your representative at the State Legislature and argue that the costs of maintaining the vehicles is absorbent and a burden to the citizens, or the manufactures that charge high prices for their parts!

I believe that we can build cars that run clean and they do, but the price for an exhaust that emits only CO2 and water is high. But we are there now. Perhaps we can push for generic parts. Like Catalytic Converters  that are standardized like your light bulbs. I think there are some good ideas that would keep costs down for the consumers, but it is more then federal standards that must be confronted, one must also consider the ideologies of the manufacturers!

So how far to drive to clear monitors? Might be 10 miles, it might be 30 or more; the only way to know is drive. I recommend a day or two of normal driving is usually sufficient. If you want the process to go faster, you need to watch the monitors. I recommend the INNOVA 30203 code reader that can be purchased for $80 or less. This is a great tool and works on any OBD2 compliant vehicle! It will let you see the monitor status and also has colored LEDs; Red is fail, Yellow might pass and Green guarantees your emissions are in compliance!

The 30203 CarScan Code is the ideal entry-level tech tool where nothing more than basic diagnostic and repair verification information is needed. Its shows over 20 pcs of info on its all in one screen, has easy to use features to quickly reveal the cause of "Check Engine" light warnings on any 1996 and newer vehicles, including all those with Controller Area Network (CAN) coverage. The tool has 15 inspection maintenance monitor coverage, shows permanent and pending codes as well as the code which tripped the freeze frame, turns off the check engine light as well as having a simple and easy to understand 3 color LED emissions status check.

Till then, drive, test, pass/fail and inspect! 

We just acquired a new Pro-Cut Brake Lathe and want to share with you why you cannot get a better rotor refinish than this machine provides.

First, Just replacing rotors is not enough. In the real world, you have many variables that affect brake rotor performance. Over zealous techs with STRONG impacts over torque wheels. I wish it were not so, but it happens too frequently. Customers also do not tighten to specification, but stand on the breaker bar and bounce to make sure it is good and tight! This is a major cause of distortion of rotors, hubs and wheels.

Sometimes even the hubs are damaged and their run-out is not longer in factory specification.  Other factors are corrosion, pot holes and curbs, etc... All these add up to minor deflections in the hub of the vehicle. Sometimes you can clean the corrosion away, but more often then not, once the rotor is attached to the hub and torqued to specification, run-out will NOT be within factory tolerances. The result? You will have brake pulsing before you next brake service, shorter pad life, and increased service costs.

Some shops say new rotors will solve the problem. Not True. New rotors will not guarantee the runout is within specifications. The only way to guarantee proper runout is employ a Rotor Matching System or RMS.

Also rotors found within machinable specifications and have runout problems often must follow elaborate procedures that include indexing, shimming and even trying to match the runout to the bench lathe in an effort to minimize on the car runout. I personally do not know of one shop that goes to half of the necessary effort to ensure rotor runout is in manufacturers specification. The do not have the time, and you wouldn't want to pay for it.  But there is a better way.

Rotor Matching System is the solution, and Pro-Cut On The Car Rotor Matching always produces a finished runout specification to within 10 thousandths of an inch EVERY TIME! Most manufactures specifications are in thousandths. Pro Cut is able to do this because the Pro-Cuts computer and their patented DRO technology establishes the runout On The Car Before machining begins. Also if specifications are excessive, hub damage may be indicated and further diagnosis my reveal more damage than meets the eye.

If you want the best rotor finish available to a specification equal to or better than manufacturer specifications, know that TASC has invested in the best available technology, the Pro-Cut On The Car Brake Lathe with Certified RMS technology. Anything less is a loosing gamble.

Brakes, Leaks, Noise, Alignments and Batteries!

We just serviced a 2002 Chevrolet Suburban at 180k. the Customers request for service was:

     1] Inspect some noises
     2] Inspect cooling system and fluids
     3] State Inspection
     4] ABS and Red brake light on
     5] Make ready for a long trip

Having 180k on the odometer means we could have a few things. A local large Automotive Service chain had recently serviced this vehicle, including an alignment.

Initially we inspected overall vehicle condition. First was a scan to check for codes in the Computer, and all was good. Next the Fluid check found low power steering fluid and coolant, Engine Oil level and Transmission Oil levels were fine and the fluid condition were good. Initial impression was that starting was good, ABS and Red Brake lights were on, no CEL. Tires were in great condition and tread was about 1/3 of new, plenty to keep a family safe on the highway!
Test drive found brakes were squeaky, and the front suspension making clunking sounds. Visually inspecting brakes we found the pads were high quality AM [After Market] pads, and all in good condition. No engine or transmission oil leaks where observed, which on this vehicle for this mileage is Exceptional! Rear Shocks were extremely poor, no leaking, just no shock power! And a Tail Light bulb was out on the passenger side. Fluid levels were all acceptable with Coolant and Power Steering a bit low. That is where the fun began!

First we checked for Power Steering leaks.
Gearbox was dry at all points. The pressure hose had wet dirt built up around one of the hose crimps, and the front seal of the pump had a similar build up also. We recommended a hose and a pump replacement.

To find the ABS light on is a common problem with Chevrolet Trucks.
Primary problem is there is a relay in the EBCM [Electronic Brake Control Module] that gets stuck on and the motor will run continuously. The customer had removed the fuse to stop the continuous run of the motor, but that had the effect of turning on the Red Brake light. After we reinstalled it, we disconnected the motor and the Red Brake light was out making the vehicle inspectable.
Normally a module replacement on this would be over $1100, we are looking into some alternatives so watch for future posts regarding ABS systems.

Next we inspected the low coolant, and confirmed that coolant has been added occasionally.
Belt condition was needy, the belts were cracking all the way to the bottom of the V's. Pressure testing did not yield a single drip, or a loss of pressure; but coolant traces were clearly visible below the weep hole on the Water Pump indicating that leakage had happened in the recent past. Coolant was clean and had a good smell. We recommended replacement of the Water Pump and Thermostat, along with new belts.
Now it was time to inspect the Front Suspension. During the test drive we observed a clunking in the front. On the lift, we inspect all the joints, and we found them to be in good condition. The Sway Bar links were worn but not the source of the noise we observed. But we found the bolts for the Upper Control Arm on the passenger side loose at the bushings! We tightened the mounting bolts and all noises were gone! Afterwards we replaced the Sway Bar links too. No more rattles in the front system!

Next we prepared for Texas State Inspection.
Checked wiper blades and found in good shape. High beam light on the IP good. All lights on the exterior were great except the right Tail Light. After replacing the Tail Light bulb, we found the Emergency Brake non functional. Texas Law requires the Emergency Brake to be able to hold the vehicle with moderate acceleration applied, and this was not happening! Cables being good and attached, we observed excessive cable movement on the passenger brake. Removal of the rotor and inspection of the Emergency Brake hardware found a missing part that must have been lost during the last service! Not sure how long ago, the customer did not remember, but it had been over a year, so somebody passed it without an Emergency Brake! With the missing pin installed, the Emergency Brake function has been restored!
Remember we had the Red Brake light on initially, with the fuse out, it was always on. We cannot have the Red Brake light on for State Inspection. After the fuse was replaced, which turns off the Red Brake light, then we unplugged the motor which has its own plug at the module. This stops the motor from continuous running, will make the ABS light always on, and the Red Brake light to be off. A yellow ABS light will not fail inspection in Texas.
And the results? State inspection Passed.
Shocks were replaced also at this time, and WOW, what a difference in ride! The ole Burb went from bouncy to firm! And now that there was no further clunking from the front suspension, the ride was great!

Battery service was a interesting too.
First we checked for Alternator output in amperage and volts and A/C voltage along with Battery testing and the Alternator was in good condition at 110 amps output and 14.5 volts with no A/C [that means the diodes are good]. While starting was good, the battery load output showed to be below specifications even though the battery was two years old! Charging system was stress tested with our SnapOn Carbon Pile Tester which puts a real load on the system, and even though the Alternator health was good, the battery was in a weakened condition.  In order to ensure that no old Battery problems would arise on the upcoming trip, we replaced the Battery now.
Marginal Batteries are something we are seeing more often. It has been our experience that Batteries are not lasting properly, even well respected name brands. Perhaps it is the Texas Summers... Also many consumers do not realize that Battery's still require service, checking water, cleaning terminals and such, but that was not the problem here.
So, it is our recommendation that your Battery and Charging System is inspected at least twice a year. We recommend Spring and Fall, or whenever the temperatures start to change alot.
At TASC, we happily perform this service at no charge.

Needless to say, the simple job became a bit more involved.
Our Priority is always Safety, then Drivability. Our customer had this to say;

     Suburban is great... like driving a new one with the 

     front end being so tight now and the new shocks

     thanks
  
     h

Thank you HK, and have a great trip!

Mike and Kenny

More Than Meets the EYE

Recently we serviced a 2003 Honda Civic. Primary problem was a failed radiator that would leak out water as fast as you pour it in. Often times, cooling system service can be more complicated that a simple leak.

A good tech will always ask WHAT, WHERE, WHY.
Why did the part fail? What could have caused the failure? Where could other problems be related to the failure? And most importantly, are there any problems that may be a result from the failure?

Our first concern was not for the radiator, but damage that may result from a cooling system failure.
We were asked if it could be driven. The customer reported the gauge DID go into the HOT range. The vehicle had failed on the road, but made it home. We have serious concerns about Hot Hondas. The tend to warp heads and blow gaskets!
Times are getting tougher financially for a lot of folks, so I was inquired as to if the car could be driven safely, as it could save the tow bill.

Please note: Driving with a coolant leak can do major damage! Driving an engine with abnormally high engine temperature can do damage. If you are NOT familiar with how important it is to keep the engine cool, DO NOT DRIVE. Serious damage can follow, and cooling systems are CRITICAL to engine operation. If you question at all whether you can safely make it to the shop, DO NOT DRIVE.

I had the customer verify how the vehicle ran. Given it started smoothly, idled immediately without any roughness or abnormal operation; the decision was made to limp it to the shop. I asked that in order to be extra safe; after driving one mile, stop the vehicle and allow it to cool. Then make sure some water was added to compensate for any lost [it was a big leak], and allow the heat to soak out of critical components. Again, dangerous condition, opening a hot radiator, if you do not know to be very careful, DO NOT OPEN A HOT RADIATOR. Temperature gauge was watched carefully, and temperature never went over normal. A short time later, he pulled into the shop.
Attempted limp results were a successful trip to TASC.

First thing we do was to check for exhaust gas in the cooling system. Because of emission services in our area, exhaust gas analysis something we do regularly. Our CO standard is anything over 50ppm is questionable. We have seen vehicles with over 100ppm that run fine for years. [my techs car for example, 7 years!]
Many things can affect these readings including head surfaces with a higher that specified roughness average [ RA].   New gasket technologies require special surface preparation. Consequently, resurfacing in the aftermarket must be specified by the repair shops, and unfortunately, many do not check or demand the correct RA numbers, or have the tools to check it. You can't overstate how important it is to have a good machinist when remanufacturing cylinder heads! Back to the repair...

Once repairs had begun, we found the failure. The lower seam on the copper/brass radiator had opened. Also the core was rotted and the fins were falling out. Hoses were in good condition and the radiator was replaced. We also found a little damage to the lower radiator mounts due to something hitting underneath the car prior to the failure. Potentially it could have been a cause, but the parts were old, so we ensured that they were properly straightened to support the new radiator.

Ken likes to use a vacuum test prior to filling the radiator. This test device ensures that there are no further leaks in the system. It also helps to ensure that coolant fills all the voids found on Honda vehicles. After filling, the vehicle is run; thermostat is checked to be opening properly, and cooling system pressure is watched, and fan operation is verified. After a trip around the block, the customer was called and the vehicle delivered.

Lord willing, we will not see any further problems.
Overheating is a serious event. If it is possible, do not drive, but tow the vehicle. I have seen serious damage due to overheating, and a tow could prevent hundreds + in repair costs. Overheating damage must be carefully inspected. Make sure your repair shop checks everything so you don't spend more money than you plan for.

13 Things Your Car Mechanic Won't Tell You OR Things Car Owners Should Want to Know

13 Things Your Car Mechanic Won't Tell You

I came across this from Readers Digest article recently. I found it a good read, but I want to add a little clarity regarding some of the things brought up by them.


"I Wouldn't Drive This Another Mile"
I want to advise you that "I have said that," and when I said it, "I meant it!"  I have had people with water pouring out as fast as you pour it in, and I've told them, "Your crazy to drive it"; I have seen some Timing Belt vehicles WAY beyond their required service intervals with Engines that self destruct if the Timing Belts break, and I have told their owners; "Your crazy to drive it!"

First off, there is no substitute for a shop you can trust. If you like to shop around for lowest cost, you will probably meet some 'sales' related shops that will use this to sell repairs. If your new in an area, or questioning whether the costs are necessary, it is best to seek the recommendation of someone you know.

I had a customer who had a rear wheel cylinder leaking on her passenger side rear brake assembly diagnosed by another shop. When she declined the service, she was questioned if she knew how to use her emergency brake properly. When I inspected it, I determined the leak to be minor but needing service, and certainly not requiring Emergency Brake Training; but I did find a really bad wheel bearing in the same assembly that they had missed! After telling her about wheel bearing and that repair costs would be even higher, I too lost the repair! Ironically, I recommended she get it fixed immediately as wheel bearing failure was imminent!

So take Readers Digests advise with a HUGE grain of salt, please carefully consider what is recommended, but PLEASE don't be intimidated with a declaration saying failure could be imminent; and do not delay in getting a second opinion. Often a simple phone call will do it. If you question repair, be willing to view the damaged part before service is performed.

At TASC, you will not hear that line unless it is TRUE.


Estimates and Authorization
Know what your estimated costs are going to be. We offer a estimate before we begin and will call if we find something that will affect the estimate significantly. By significant we consider a 10% increase in cost or more worth a phone call. More importantly is we like to dialogue with you, to help you know EXACTLY what your repairs will accomplish. Today many are trying to prevent unnecessary costs, and I want to support your efforts to provide the best value for your repair dollar. Consequently we use a broad base of vendors and source parts during the repairs thus requiring at times we adjust the part prices; labor may need to be increased if additional problems are discovered after beginning repairs.

Quality repairs are not inexpensive, and neither are quality parts. At TASC we strive to be accurate in our estimates, use quality parts, and estimate all related items before we begin repairs.

Sometimes our customers ask that we use a cost saving part. Low cost parts can help keep costs down. But if you require that we use a Low Cost part, you will get a warranty that matches their quality. At TASC we always write our estimates using High Quality Parts that meet Original Equipment specifications, and we offer a 1yr. Part Labor warranty when we use them.


Synthetic Oil vs. Conventional Oil 
I personally have strong opinions. Synthetic oil is far superior to conventional, and some brands are WAY better than others. BUT, I recommend a high quality brand and 3k oil changes. You are probably wondering WHY?

Short version is that synthetic oil is too good! If you opt for extended service interval over 3k, I would recommend blends or synthetic. But maybe the best thing to consider is the SYSTEM approach. If you use synthetics, make sure you use either a filter designed for it like AMSOIL EA, or change your filter before you change your oil again. The problem is dirt. ICE motors are dirty and frequent changes get rid of the carbon suspended in the oil which is a natural byproduct of combustion.

My opinion is the single best thing you can do is change frequently. Some manufacturers would say conserve oil by extending service intervals, but used oil is RECYCLED. And what you don't know is that recycled oil is BETTER, than new. Yep, it is better, because it is easier to re refine used oil, and there is a lot of synthetic oil in used oil. Try to buy quality recycled sometime and you will see it commands a higher price. Used oil is not thrown away, so do not worry about the waste. [But you might think of the Nations Security when buying foreign oil!]
As far as extended changes, you big savings is the time to you spend at the lube shop, not in the dollars spent.


Coolant Flushes, Injector Cleanings, Power Steering Fluids 
These are items that are over recommended and often unnecessary. Overlooked fluids are Brake fluid and Power Steering. They should be serviced somewhat regularly as the manufacturer recommends, but it is often NOT necessary to flush or change.

I often drain and fill a reservoir of Brake or Power Steering, it helps keep the fluid in good condition. In a brake system, new fluid in the master will drop the moisture content in the whole system, and a little fresh fluid in the power steering or transmission will do the same, it will help keep the quality of the fluid in the good range. When something is serviced like pads, calipers or cylinders, that's when I recommend a brake fluid change. Same for Power Steering, most will already have 'changed' their fluid if they have a leak! But sometimes a condition like a pump failure may mandate a flush, and even then, material may be hard to remove, and a filter may be required for warranty.

Injector cleanings should only be done when you have a problem. The fuel from Top Tier suppliers [Name Brand] contain additives that will keep your injectors clean. The cost per tank for Top Tier fuels is usually $1 or a little more to use good fuel. You can't buy a can of injector cleaner at the store for that! So I recommend use good quality fuel and skip the injector flush.

Most automatic transmissions do require periodic fluid services. Follow manufacture recommendations and you will be fine. We recommend fluid drains and fills around 15k older vehicles. Flushing a transmission is rarely required. Also many of the new vehicles have 100k fluid in them now, and it is usually synthetic, and it is expensive. I will discuss transmission later...


Brakes and Mufflers
Are there ANY OE equivalent pads in the Aftermarket? If there is, will someone please tell me who makes them? Same with mufflers. The markets today are FLOODED with cheap parts. You get what you pay for. Some OE parts are VERY expensive, like close to $200 for one set of pads! And surprisingly there are many OE pads that are VERY competitive. But, the big issue is will the AM perform to OE specifications?

Many AM pads are engineered for 25K miles, and many will make noise. I recently compared some shoes, and only one AM premium line had the OE level of lining, and the jury is still out on the performance and durability.

At TASC, we recommend OE if cost isn't a primary factor, and we will be constantly looking for a good value for the customer. One more thing on OE parts. Many OE dealers are carrying two lines of parts; One is the parts that cars are born with, and the other is a cost effective alternative. Many dealer will not ask, but will sell the low line. So remember, in OE parts are not necessarily OE, but AM approved by OE, whatever that means...


Double Up Labor 
I hate to say it, but I see this alot. This problem I will lay at the poor labor guides we have. Yet there is no substitute for experience. We often get beat up on labor. The primary factor for the small shop is being unfamiliar with the processes of every repair. It seems like most labor guides expect you to be an Olympic contender.

But the bottom line is a labor guides provide poor procedural breakdowns of the repairs. I often see a water pump change on a car with a Tbelt LOWER in labor that a T-Belt ALONE! Why? No one who writes the guides seems to know! It's often struggle with estimating times, and strive to be accurate so we are competitive. Some shops just 'add' the labors together, thus double up! We always consider the Big Picture, and often recommend and quote the labor for the procedure that will save YOU the most in the long run. We don't 'double up' with overlapping time; we carefully consider the overlaps and propose a labor hour that coincides with the whole job.


#22 Metal Shavings in Transmission Pans 
I am not sure why they are pushing this one. Metal is NOT normal, to be more correct FINE metal is normal, but COARSE metal is not. But often, filter services are done too frequently. We recommend drains and fills, extraction and fills in lieu of filter services most times.

Fluid breakdown is the primary problem frequent services are guarding against. Stick to OE recommended filter services, drain and fill fluid every 15k or so when over 60k, unless manufacturer say not to, or when synthetics are used.

Transmissions, by the way are PERFECT devices to optimize the use of synthetics. Better fluid means less service labor! Transmissions are closed systems, and leaks are minimal, so because there is no byproduct of combustion to deal with, High Quality fluids can eliminate frequent fluid services, so be sure to ask if you can save money by using synthetics in your transmission.

 If you think of anything, just ask. I want you to know that I have your best interests in mind. My goal is to provide you with the high quality service you should expect at a reasonable price. 
For some great tips on care care, you can visit  ASE Car Care Tips.

To better assist the Wylie Motoring Community and others, I am beginning the Texas Auto Service Center Wylie Blog! My goal is assist you by providing information to help you make good decisions in regards to servicing and maintaining you car or truck.

Mike Minich [me] is a ASE Master L1 Automotive Technician, ASE Master Collision, ASE Service Consultant, ICAR Trained in Collision Repair and Advanced Vehicle Systems [AVS], IMACA Certified in Recovery and Retrofit of Automobile A/C Systems, IATN Sponsor, and I use Direct Hit for Service Information and Estimating. Keep watching: Lots more to come!